Holy Fatosphere Shitstorm, Batman
Oct 21st, 2009 by heidi
First and foremost, I want to thank all of you who took the time to comment on my post yesterday. As I’ve seen mentioned elsewhere, the Fatosphere has been a little cold for me recently and I really needed your warm fuzzies. Hugs to all of you!
So I get wrapped in my warm “comment on your blog post” e-mail notifications only to find myself shoved into the cold, cold pool of controversy when I read Sylvia’s post about Bianca’s post and Marianne’s response. And oh my, what an icy pool it was, too.
I’m new to the Fatosphere. I am not one of the so-called queens (if Marianne Kirby and Kate Harding are queens, I’m the lowly serf who just stepped onto the estate and is wondering what muck patch to start on first) but I have opinions. Note: I use the queen/serf hierarchy quite lightheartedly here. To quote Monty Python, “I didn’t vote for you!” and I don’t see FA as having a hierarchy like that, except in overall TV-and-NPR-interviewed and blog-readership-numberedness. I jest.
My point is, however, that I’ve been doing the non-diet, intuitive eating process since summer 2003, when I finished “Overcoming Overeating” and “When Women Stop Hating Their Bodies,” stocked up, tossed the scale, and have rarely looked back. The world of SA/FA seemed like a beautiful paradise where RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW, I was already in that place that Carol Munter and Jane Hirschmann envisioned, where nobody was judged on the size of their bodies, the contents of their shopping carts, or the number on their clothing tags. When I found the Fatosphere, and especially Shapely Prose, and such marvelous articles as the Fantasy of Being Thin, it was a revelation. You fats out there are my peeps! I am welcome!
Apparently, however, one is only a peep until one is a douchebag. A less pleasant, less empowering, less generous term I have rarely heard. I will occasionally refer to someone who has annoyed me as a pissant (what was that about serfs and mucky patches again?) or an asshole (when I’m not in the hearing of my parents or supervisors at work) but “douchebag,” particularly when directed at someone who is on the same Fatosphere feed as you and might just happen upon your post and be hurt by it is a tad more degrading and extreme, I find, however marvelous a person one is otherwise.
I like Marianne – of course I do (didn’t I just post about convincing my library system to buy what turned out to be multiple copies of her book?) – but while I can understand why some took Bianca’s post as belligerent, I only read it as being an honest, if somewhat blunt, acknowledgement of the privilege that she does enjoy because of her race and economic status and recognize that, in the end, that she asks the question of what she can do next. I certainly did not feel that she was ignoring other people’s experiences but rather saying that in the discussions in the Fatosphere on “privilege” it sometimes gets left out that even someone like me, who was born white, blond-haired, and blue-eyed, has never had to go hungry because my parents didn’t have enough to feed me, and has never been homeless, knows what it’s like to be miserable and unprivileged. I’ve had some shit happen to me too. Not more shit than others, and certainly not worse, but certainly shit that causes me pain. I am not JUST the victimizer, I am also the victimized. I should not have to apologize for the accident of birth that placed me in a home with parents who are not divorced, and made me prefer men to women, but rather, I should be content with who I am while demonstrating mutual respect for those around me, whatever our individual experiences, because all of us have our own baggage.
I know, I know, there must be somewhere in the Feminist/Racist 101 where I’m sidestepping my privilege by bringing up hurts of my own but that absolutely isn’t my point. I don’t claim to be anything less than privileged, and neither did Bianca. I don’t discount that other people have it harder than I do, and neither did Bianca. My point is, we should not have to apologize for who we are. If we allow who we are to get in the way of trying to understand the fundamental unfairnesses that other people face because of size, gender, sexual orientation, and all those other handy equal opportunity terms, THEN we have a reason to apologize.
In other words, I can be sorry for, and try to change the fact that my blonde hair and blue eyes give me any kind of advantage, without being sorry for the fact that that I have blonde hair and blue eyes. Let me repeat:
I can be sorry for, and try to change the fact that my blonde hair and blue eyes give me any kind of advantage, without being sorry for the fact that that I have blonde hair and blue eyes.
I cannot claim to know what it is like to be biracial, or transgender, or lesbian, or a man. None of those things are part of who I am. When my friend Q discusses the challenges that she faces as a single black woman in a family that thinks she should be married and raising babies, well, I can’t *know* what that feels like any more than she can *know* what it’s like for me to be in labor and give birth. No, I don’t equate racism with parenthood – I’m just using that as an example of mutually unknowable experiences and probably a bad example.
She can, however, sympathize with the challenges of raising a child just as I sympathize with the difficulty of being an only child whose parents pressure her to be someone that she is not. We both know what it is like to deal with depression, to struggle through the difficulties of being shuttled from place to place as children, and to have bodies that are not societally ideal. Yes, societally, my skin color gives me privilege…but I can either spend my life apologizing uselessly to Q for that privilege (I’m never going to be dark-skinned any more than I’m ever going to be thin), or I can accept that it is the case and figure out what I can do to make our relative skin colors non-issues in the world around us. What I will certainly never do is claim to know what will and won’t offend her without hearing her opinion and if she ever feels that I have been offensive, I certainly would want to know.
We are our layers of experience. Some of us are more privileged than others. It is our duty as citizens of this world to create societies in which discrimination on any grounds does not occur. What I think Bianca was trying to say, though, although perhaps not exactly in the way in which I would have said it, was that she knows she is in that position of relative privilege and she doesn’t quite know what to do next, except that she doesn’t want to feel constantly shamed for the things she can’t help instead of accepting them and focusing on the things she can do that will help lessen the amount of privilege those aspects of herself give her over others.
This isn’t very coherent, I guess, and it’s far too long. I just find myself wondering the same thing, really. Why is it okay for Kate Harding to acknowledge that the latest SP blogger is “privileged” and fairly homogeneous with the other SP bloggers, expressing how very, very much angst it caused them to choose another person with “overlapping forms of privilege” to blog on SP, but still choose her anyway, but somehow it is not okay for Bianca to recognize her own privilege in an equally blatant (and seemingly unrepentant way) even when she specifically asks what the heck she can actually DO about it, since she can’t actually change any of those things that give her said privilege.
I stay out of FA politics but some of this is starting to feel like the “let’s be guilty for being middle-class, semi-fat white cisgendered women but not actually give minority bloggers and the “un-privileged” a substantial voice while we do it” club instead of the “We are who we are, let’s not feel guilty for that, but let’s do our damndest to make this a diverse group that embraces EVERYONE, from end to end of the rainbow, size, and gender spectra” club. Most of the commenters who actively identified themselves as being part of a minority group in their responses to Bianca’s post said quite clearly that they were NOT offended. Can we have a conversation about that instead, because is the issue really what Bianca said or how she was perceived to have said it? And, if it’s the latter, can we talk instead about how expression is perceived on the Internet, instead of accusing someone of being clueless about her privilege (I don’t just target this at Marianne – a lot of people jumped on Bianca).
And however we do it, can we not call each other douchebags in our publicly-consumed blogs? How is that any more helpful than the potentially over-belligerent post being critiqued?
Thank you. You said ever-so-coherently what I think a lot of people are thinking and didn’t say. And I guess what I was trying to get at.
Wasn’t it Rodney King that said “Can’t we all just get along?” and I think he said it because people were causing all of this scandal and commotion over something he was dealing with on his own terms, not the terms of what the bigger populace wanted. Like, no one asked him what he wanted to do or how he felt about it.
It’s bad enough to face the world with whatever you’ve got to face the world with, whether it be fat or skinny or black or white, but when you face ‘discrimination’ within a community that you thought you belonged in, it really does alienate you.
Ok, sorry for the verbal vomit there!
Again, thanks for this post.
I understand, I think, the perception of what Bianca’s post was saying that caused people to be so upset but I think it was perception, not what Bianca actually meant, and it surprises me that so many people don’t seem to have understood that. I do think Bianca could have worded what she was saying far more carefully but I respect the fact that she’s trying to get a handle on this “privilege” business in her own voice.
And for heaven’s sake, where’s the moral rectitude in calling people names when part of the reason we even NEED a Fatosphere is because people like to call us names. I put that in childish vocabulary, because I am beginning to feel that’s the level of some people’s commentary on this situation, but I hope my meaning is clear…there are ways to disagree without personal attacks.
Isn’t it sad that you have to preface a common sense comment like, “I can’t *know* what that feels like any more than she can *know* what it’s like for me to be in labor and give birth” with a disclaimer that you’re not equating racism and parenthood?
That tells you everything you need to know.
Otherwise intelligent people have to have analogies explained to them because they don’t understand that analogies are not literal. They have to have that explained because otherwise that’s just grist for their pissed mill and they can throw that in with the rest of the evidence that says you’re a dumbass.
That’s what happened to Bianca. People read her words, didn’t like them for whatever reason, and misinterpreted them either on purpose or in ignorance.
*sigh*
There’s nothing you can do about the bad faith arguments I guess. Just keep telling the truth as you see it and hope the average Joe will get your intention.
Peace,
Shnnon
Sadly, I’ve been on the Intarwebz long enough to know that if you DON’T add said disclaimer, someone will accuse you of saying racism = parenthood and don’t you know parents are more privileged, and why the hell can’t you support my being childfree and as a fat person you should KNOW WHAT REAL DISCRIMINATION IS only being fat isn’t knowing real discrimination and you really are privileged, so just shut up!
There really are ways to express disagreement with a post without resorting to nastiness (I hope I haven’t crossed that line in any way), and I’m just sorry that wasn’t the way it played out in response to Bianca’s post.
To be more exact, though, The Rotund didn’t call her a douchebag. She said by her post she was being a douchebag. Still not the world’s most endearing conversation starter, but a bit less permanent and personal.
Fair enough, although I don’t think it negates the fact that the word used in that context is still pretty inappropriate, really, with the overtones of personal attack that it implies as Bianca’s post could have been even for someone who didn’t initially read it as I did (not something I found particularly well-informed and wise but also not malicious).
I can’t speak for anyone else, but the part of Bianca’s post that bothered me was the beginning – the title of “my privilege is better than yours” and then the first paragraph asking if people were jealous. It read as something that should be sarcastic but there were no indications it was, so the whole post read as bragging to me. (I understand perfectly well it wasn’t intended that way, but intent is very often *way* different from outcome.)
Shiyiya – I think it certainly could have been worded in a more respectful way but I think I realized pretty quickly that because of who she is, based on what I’ve read of ZC (i.e., funny, brash, and boisterous), it had to be sarcasm.
It’s not how I would have written it. I think Sylvia wouldn’t have written it at all, if her comments to me are any indication, but there’s a big difference between saying “Hey, Bianca, try to be more sensitive” and “Hey, Bianca, stop being a douchebag” (and some of the other nastier things that were said about her on the Fatosphere).
“Why is it okay for Kate Harding to acknowledge that the latest SP blogger is “privileged” and fairly homogeneous with the other SP bloggers, expressing how very, very much angst it caused them to choose another person with “overlapping forms of privilege” to blog on SP, but still choose her anyway, but somehow it is not okay for Bianca to recognize her own privilege in an equally blatant (and seemingly unrepentant way) even when she specifically asks what the heck she can actually DO about it, since she can’t actually change any of those things that give her said privilege.”
Thank you so much for saying this, I have been wondering this all day.
The part that rubs me the wrong way is where she says she doesn’t wish other people had the same privilege. I can see how it could be patronizing to say to an individual “I wish you could go on a European vacation too!” but what’s wrong with wishing that everyone had equal ability to go on European vacations? I wish I could go on a European vacation at the drop of a hat. I can see how people who are not experienced in the ways of privilege were put off by the reaction to the post but I can also kinda feel where the reaction came from.
I think what she meant was that she doesn’t want to assume that everyone wants to be cisgendered, live a middle-class lifestyle, etc. I think that, awkwardly worded, she’s trying to say precisely what the naysayers have said she should be saying about her privilege, namely, that she shouldn’t make assumptions about other people based on the position she holds.
I think it’s less “I wish that I could send you on a European vacation too!” than “I don’t know if you WANT to go on a European vacation, but if you did I wish you could go too and I want to know how to get you there!”
I was one of the ones who identified myself as a minority who was not offended. She wasn’t oppressing me or making me feel like crap. I just don’t feel Bianca’s post warranted such outrage, and those that posted pretentious and condescending insults need to take the sticks out of their behinds and find something more horrible to get upset about.
Thank you for saying this. I was going to (and may still) write a very similar post but since I am still new to this community (and FA), I am feeling rather confused by all of this…
Bree – I agree that her post wasn’t worth commenting on, but the backlash to the backlash is just as bewildering.
I’m new to the Fatosphere feed but not new to the idea of FA or size acceptance and it’s rubbing me the wrong way that we “newbies” don’t seem to be permitted an opinion (as extrapolated from the comments on Bianca’s post and elsewhere).
Maybe we need to form the Tolerant Newbie Fatosphere instead
hsofia – I think it’s the backlash to the idea that FA is about keeping your mouth shut until someone decides that you’re knowledgeable enough to post.
Her post was awkwardly worded and not very sensitive. The tiny percentage of people who reacted to it in a way that was completely overblown is what I find problematic and indicative of a deeper rift in the FA community.
Heidi – but why? If they are a tiny percentage, why is it even an issue? I’ve seen similar things happen in other blogospheres, and it usually seems to boil down to a sense of perceived power.
hsofia – It might be a tiny percentage of voices but when those voices are Marianne Kirby’s (The Rotund) and SweetMachine (of Shapely Prose), as well as other well-known FA folks, they’re awfully loud.
Actually, in fairness to SweetMachine, that comment didn’t mean what I thought it did – but there are others in the FA “hierarchy” that have expressed the “you newbie, hush now” opinion.
hsofia: I think it’s an issue because of exactly what Heidi said. If you’re a newbie like she, Bianca, Shannon and myself (blog hasn’t been up a year yet) who starts jumping into loaded topics regarding the murky political, racial and feminist waters regarding fat, apparently it riles some of the vets because we’re not “smart” enough yet to talk about these topics. It is a power struggle because for years, you have nearly everyone on the same page. But then other people start blogs that challenge the status quo and the majority gets offended and angry.
No, we shouldn’t all hold hands and be all flowers and rainbows, but we should be able to disagree without resorting to childish name calling and acting like pretentious jerks. Unfortunately, some in the FA community don’t want to take the time to hear different points of view and open up a chain of dialogue, because then they will actually have to face the fact that not everyone thinks like they do.
I don’t know … I don’t feel like it’s an issue of being a newbie. I’ve seen other newbies post without problems. What I saw when I went to the SP – and I’d not even heard of The Rotund until yesterday – is people talking about FA within the context of other oppressions. That is refreshing. If other blogs don’t want to view FA in light of patriarchy, feminism, sexism, racism, ableism, (sometimes even capitalism!) etc. that’s their prerogative, but it seems unfair to complain that because some other blogs (with significant readerships – not an unimportant detail) DO concern themselves with this type of analysis, that one is left out of the discussion.
They aren’t just talking about FA, they are talking about FA and how it is a manifestation of all these other oppressive systems. If someone’s not interested in all those other oppressions, or doesn’t think they are relevant to the discussion of being fat, that’s their thing – and that’s the majority of FA blogs from what I can tell.
But truly, the original post about privilege that Bianca posted just made me roll my eyes and head back to SP (I only read her posting because it was on the Fatosphere feed on SP’s page). It struck me as whiny and subversive. I’ve heard people say pretty much the exact same thing many times and I just don’t have time for it, which is why I didn’t bother to comment to register my annoyance.
Personally, I think the best response people who disagreed with her could have taken was silence instead of posting rude comments.
hsofia – “but it seems unfair to complain that because some other blogs (with significant readerships – not an unimportant detail) DO concern themselves with this type of analysis, that one is left out of the discussion.”
But why is it unfair to complain if another voice isn’t being heard, or if you dislike a particular analysis, so long as you are doing it respectfully? Bianca’s post could have been more respectful, sure, and probably should have been…but it is her own personal blog and she has every right to present an alternate perspective to mainline FA. In fact, if SP is to be believed, we’re supposed to be encouraging those alternate perspectives, not deriding them.
And what is the role of the “significant readership” issue? That’s like saying that only the most popular people should get to vote on anything, or express opinions. Surely, since we ARE all in the minority as FA-advocates, we should be opening ourselves up to minority perspectives and encouraging debate rather than discouraging it or implying (or even stating outright) that people who don’t toe the party line are being OH SO MEEN AND DELUDED (I point to the recent XKCD cartoon debate).
“I only read it as being an honest, if somewhat blunt, acknowledgement of the privilege that she does enjoy because of her race and economic status and recognize that, in the end, that she asks the question of what she can do next.”
That’s all I got too, and I was hoping the comments section would help all of us out who wanted to know ‘what’s next?’ not a big friggin’ mess. Your post is lovely, thanks for making it.
I do want to point out that “Don’t be a douchebag” is rather different from “Bianca is a douchebag.” I used her post as an example of hella what not to do and I totally stand by that – I’m not of the kumbaya-holding-hands-with-everyone-all-the-time school of FA. We’re going to clash internally, rather a lot sometimes. Being fat all of us together…. It doesn’t actually make us peeps except in one way. It’s an important way and it’s not like I’m lobbying to have Bianca, I don’t know, disbarred from FA? I don’t even know how one would do that. *laugh*
Heidi – the reason I mention the significant readership is because in my experience with blogs and the interwebs, a lot of this kind of resentment and anger has to do with the less popular (but more numerous) voices trying to claim their own space in the ’sphere. And the only reason I wonder if this is happening is because ZC reference SP throughout their blog, but not the other way around.
“Heidi – the reason I mention the significant readership is because in my experience with blogs and the interwebs, a lot of this kind of resentment and anger has to do with the less popular (but more numerous) voices trying to claim their own space in the ’sphere. And the only reason I wonder if this is happening is because ZC reference SP throughout their blog, but not the other way around.”
I want to address this, because we have gotten several comments of this nature today.
There are 222 published posts on our blog. Some of them are repeats of older posts.
I did a search for Kate Harding. Nine posts came up. Two of those were repeat posts. So we have seven. Of those seven, three just contained links to posts on her blog, so there are four individual posts that actually contain something about her.
I did the same search for Shapely Prose. Five posts. One repeat.
So four that reference Kate and four that reference SP. Hardly justification for the ‘you’re just jellus’ comments.
“I think it’s the backlash to the idea that FA is about keeping your mouth shut until someone decides that you’re knowledgeable enough to post.”
YES! I have to add that not only do you have to wait until you’re deemed “knowledgeable enough” but you have to espouse the same opinions or profusely apologize for previous disagreements in order not to be labeled a troll, etc.
Marianne – I don’t disagree that there IS a slight difference in the two statements (being a douchebag vs. is a douchebag) but either way, it’s an intentionally rude way of making an argument and, from the number of people I’ve seen upset by it on various posts, I don’t think I’m the only one who thought that it was an inappropriate way to deal with a potentially inappropriate/provocative/badly-worded (however one wants to view it) post.
Of course I don’t think FA should be a bed of roses but I do think that it’s a place where, at the very least, we should be able to have a respectful discussion of our differing opinions.
Bianca
If SP or SP posts have only been mentioned or referred to in seven posts at ZC, then I stand corrected.
I do want to point out that “Don’t be a douchebag” is rather different from “Bianca is a douchebag.” I used her post as an example of hella what not to do and I totally stand by that – I’m not of the kumbaya-holding-hands-with-everyone-all-the-time school of FA. We’re going to clash internally, rather a lot sometimes. Being fat all of us together…. It doesn’t actually make us peeps except in one way. It’s an important way and it’s not like I’m lobbying to have Bianca, I don’t know, disbarred from FA? I don’t even know how one would do that. *laugh*
Am I the only one who found Marianne’s post arrogant and dismissive?
Well, I think if you read the comments at the various posts I linked to, Gina, you’ll find you’re not the only one, although I know Marianne doesn’t feel like she went over the top. Personally, I think “douchebag” is, well, a douchey thing to say about anybody, but that’s just my opinion and for the most part I very much respect Marianne and the other FA-oldsters.
There are really mixed views of this, as evidenced by the debate that’s been raging about it today!
I fail to see how there’s a difference between *calling someone a douchebag* and *saying “don’t be a douchebag!” while illustrating your idea of douchebaggery by using a post from the person you’re supposedly not calling a douchebag.*
It just struck me after I read hsofia’s comments (which I totally agree with and now as a result half wish I hadn’t posted anywhere in response to Bianca’s OP) that this issue of readership size has one obvious effect — it means when there is an ‘epic thread’ it is going to be proportionately more epic in the sense of numbers of comments. Some of the recent SP threads have been enormous — sooo many comments! And if you manage to keep on top of reading them, and follow the conversations, it’s quite a lot of work — I showed my mum the Schroedinger’s Rapist one for example, and she enjoyed reading it but flagged after 300-ish comments from 1200. That’s a lot of discussion to miss! If it’s harder to read and digest all the comments and conversation, it’s easier to miss something and it’s easier not to see all of the back and forth in the debate that was there (and the fact this lead to repeat conversations in the comments was as I understood it, part of the reason the comments on it got closed).
So in a quasi-physical way, the ’size’ of the commenting readership does make a very real difference. That’s not to say the newer blogs or those with smaller readership are less important, but it does help to explain why the more established and/or ‘bigger’ readershipped blogs have more gravitational pull for new readers and stuff… While I can certainly see that must be frustrating for other blogs in many ways, I can’t understand all the snipey ‘queen’ comments flying around. Once someone is ‘in’ the Fatosphere, surely one of the first things they do is explore that RSS feed, and find other linked blogs through it? And click on the commenter names of those who have blog links… So the one(s) with the big gravitational pull aren’t necessarily hindering other blog voices from being heard in *quite* the way that has sometimes been made out. At risk of being a bit ‘WATBB’ (what about the big blogz?), it is also maybe worth bearing in mind that with 20 zillion comments, the shape of a conversation sparked by a post, and indeed and qualifications made by the OP in that subsequent discussion, can be swept over or even missed to some degree… Aren’t some of these issues maybe affecting how this particular ‘blow up’ is panning out?
I have been reading along in all these. I think that from now on, when I read these very deep and controversial blogs, I am going to respond with the following:
“I like cake”
Simple, to the point, and likely to get me in no end of trouble
Well Said!
crookedfinger – I don’t think there is much of a difference. There is one, I suppose, but it’s a fine line (as my husband so eloquently pointed out in the comments on the next post!) I like Marianne, so am giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I think much of the resultant brouhaha is because other people feel as you do.
Zenoodle – The issue of readership is interesting and worth pondering…I don’t have an answer for you on how it is affecting this discussion but certainly agree that it might well be doing so.
NoCelery – Hear, hear.
Thanks for posting this. Your writing is respectful and thoughtful and you assume that everyone involved basically meant well. I like that about you and it seems that lots of other people agree.
I read lots of FA blogs, but in a lurky fashion. Yours is the only one I ever comment on. The Fatosphere seems to be littered with landmines. Just one badly expressed sentiment and the doom rains down upon you.
i dont understand this “newbies arent allowed an opinion” nonsense. all anyone is asking of you is to educate yourself on the subject BEFORE you say something ass-y. and if you do say something ass-y (we all do sometimes) dont get defensive and stick your fingers in your ears when someone points it out.
oh and for god’s sake could you guys stop with the tone argument. blah blah blah. the reason you’re getting so much negative reaction from the community is because WE HAVE HAD THESE CONVERSATIONS A MILLION TIMES BEFORE! google it.
educate yourself.